Confederation of Dixie Navy

Made a airplane? Zeppelin? Something in between? Here's where to put it. (Meant for any new skins/etc.etc/ and not actual new aircraft stats)
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Carthaginian
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Re: Confederation of Dixie Navy

Postby Carthaginian » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:20 pm

Image

Here's the rough draft of the 'skyhook carrier.' It's not very graceful or polished; I'm trying to clean it up a bit to make it look more presentable. I don't really have the skill set necessary to draw like some out there. :(

In case it's not obvious form the drawing (probably not) the smoke stack (and its twin on the opposite side) is along the rail, while the island is in the center of the ship. The upper island is only for flight ops; navigation takes place on the bridge, located at the front of the ship.The aft end of the hanger is open and features a track for the planes to be moved inside. There are two cranes (on on either beam) but only enough room for one aircraft to be handled at a time. An elevator is located approximately 20' aft of the catapult track. The catapult is steam-powered and has a single track.

Fox,
I thought about doing it that way, making the ships look similar to the old Japanese Chitose... but I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't look as appealing to a pilot bouncing up and down as he tried to thread that needle's eye in 3-4m seas. I figure that the crane that at least gets the pilot out away from the structure of the ship is safer.
Southrons, hear your country call you!
Up lest worse than death befall you!
To arms, to arms, to arms in Dixie.


All my planes are made with parts from: http://www.toposolitario.com/workshop/crimsonskies.html.

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Thom
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Re: Confederation of Dixie Navy

Postby Thom » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:35 pm

Jerba wroteColonGreat ideas going on in here. I love the idea of a skyhook on a ship. Sounds dangerous in real life, but CS makes it a possibility! Pirates that can't afford a zepp? Why not have an old ship instead? Sweet.



The irony here is that the Zep is most likely a lot cheaper to make, buy or sell than the ship is. It would also be cheaper to operate as ships use massive amounts of fuel, but the advantage of hauling gross tonnage far superior to the Zep does give the ship some strong appeal. That and you wouldn't have to worry about the constant replacement of helium or hydrogen with a ship!
Flying the Crimson Skies

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Carthaginian
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Re: Confederation of Dixie Navy

Postby Carthaginian » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:27 am

Ok... the average C-3 cargo ship would cost about $3,135,000 per ship. A further $1,500,000 was necessary to turn the S.S. Mormacmail into the U.S.S. Long Island (CVE-01). Now, the cost of purpose-building a hull is far less than the combined cost of building a vessel and then converting it to a different design. So, a $4,000,000 pricetag sounds good to me for an average-sized escort carrier; regardless, a total cost of $4,635,000 gets you a cargo ship built and then converted... guns and all.

The Hindenburg, by contrast, cost $2,600,000 according to one writer.* That is a sketchy guess, in all likelihood, s the Hindenburg was something like what the Soviets would have called a 'Hero Project' and I don't know if cost was actually counted when she was built. The U.S.S. Arkon by contrast, cost a staggering $4,500,000 to build. It seems by comparing size and structure, that most of this cost came from the helium; the helium alone for the U.S.S. Shenandoah cost a whopping $1,155,000. So, it seems that a small military zep in the CS Universe costs about $4,500,000 million, and larger ones can be much, much more expensive.


So, it would seem that a pirate group could indeed capture a large freighter and convert it into a wet carrier cheaply- though 'cheap' is a relative term in either case.


*Rosendahl, What About the Airship?, p 154
Southrons, hear your country call you!
Up lest worse than death befall you!
To arms, to arms, to arms in Dixie.


All my planes are made with parts from: http://www.toposolitario.com/workshop/crimsonskies.html.

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Thom
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Re: Confederation of Dixie Navy

Postby Thom » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:56 am

You make a very good argument for the ship there! I had not considered that helium would be so expensive. I would imagine that given the nature of the CS universe that helium would be cheaper than in our world, but I can see how it would still be expensive. All things considered, I can easily envision the costs in CS as being roughly equal in terms of Ship vs Zep purchase prices. Of course, very few pirates would actually buy their Zeps or their Ships so I guess it would come down to maintenance and operating costs. And nations can afford to get what they want in most cases regardless of costs. . .

This certainly puts things in a new light for me!

(*Smoke starts spouring out of Thom's ears, grinding gears can be heard, even from a distance*)
Flying the Crimson Skies

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Carthaginian
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Re: Confederation of Dixie Navy

Postby Carthaginian » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:22 am

Oh, no doubt... the Pirates would surely steal anything and everything that comes their way.
My eyes were drawn to the 'conversion' costs when I was thinking about this.

The difference between the cost of Hindenburg and U.S.S. Akron hints at roughly a $1,900,000 conversion cost to take a civilian cargo zep of roughly 7 million cu. ft. and turn it into a paramilitary carrier zep. Also, Hindenburg was larger than U.S.S. Akron- by nearly 10%! Adding 10% to the 'conversion cost' gives us a $2,090,000. That's a pretty rough estimate, but it's all we got. Then, factor in the cost of converting to helium... well, at $55/1000 cu. ft. the 7.1 million cu. ft. Hindenburg would cost a further $3,905,000 to fill with helium, even if the cost of converting the ship's hardware is included in the refit price. :o

So, for my money (and effort in stealing) I can have:
a 20 knot, 10,000 ton carrier with room for 20 planes for $1,500,000... not counting fuel.
a 70 knot, 7.1 M cu.ft. airship with room for 10 planes for $2,090,000... not counting gas.

I guess that which is the better investment would depend on how many pirates there were, what you were planning on stealing, and where you were intending on hiding. Of course, like you said, a nation wouldn't be thinking about those kinds of things. But it does appear that it would be less expensive for a poor nation to maintain a fleet of small wet carriers for air coverage offshore instead of zeppelins.
Southrons, hear your country call you!
Up lest worse than death befall you!
To arms, to arms, to arms in Dixie.


All my planes are made with parts from: http://www.toposolitario.com/workshop/crimsonskies.html.

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Grant
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Re: Confederation of Dixie Navy

Postby Grant » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:33 am

AWESOME STUFF Carthaginian!!!

Definately a plus.

Naval forces are a thing left out too much in Crimson Skies :) I like the "Skyhook carrier" concept. I never would have thought of it, a good idea. Only one drawback ;) A miss on a zeppelin, they might survive and come around. A miss on a ship....a 15-50 foot drop?

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Carthaginian
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Re: Confederation of Dixie Navy

Postby Carthaginian » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:38 am

Grant wroteColonAWESOME STUFF Carthaginian!!!
Definately a plus.
Naval forces are a thing left out too much in Crimson Skies :) I like the "Skyhook carrier" concept. I never would have thought of it, a good idea. Only one drawback ;) A miss on a zeppelin, they might survive and come around. A miss on a ship....a 15-50 foot drop?


LOL... yeah... the 'skyhook carrier' is a pretty risky thing- that's part of why none of the myriad designs created by H.M.'s Navy have never seen the light of day. Even with modern Harriers, they are not exactly the most ideal way of getting an aircraft aboard ship. I could see them working in the CS Universe, however- pilots there are particularly trained to catch a skyhook, and so the method should be viewed as 'reliable'. I'd Imagine that there are even 'come around' procedures written for those kind of vessels... or at least good bail-out techniques. :mrgreen:



Next up for the C.D.N., a destroyer who's ahead of her time. :twisted:
Southrons, hear your country call you!
Up lest worse than death befall you!
To arms, to arms, to arms in Dixie.


All my planes are made with parts from: http://www.toposolitario.com/workshop/crimsonskies.html.

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Thom
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Re: Confederation of Dixie Navy

Postby Thom » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:21 am

I am probably missremembering. . . But didn't the original CS video game for PC have a British Submarine/Carrier? Or was it just a sub defended by ground based planes?

If not. . . Well given the wonky CS physics, why not?

Flight deck on top with elevators and sea doors, surface to launch & recover, hide below the waves the rest of the time! A pirates dream!
Flying the Crimson Skies

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Carthaginian
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Re: Confederation of Dixie Navy

Postby Carthaginian » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:15 am

Thom wroteColonI am probably missremembering. . . But didn't the original CS video game for PC have a British Submarine/Carrier?
If not. . . Well given the wonky CS physics, why not?


Hell, why not in REAL LIFE?
Image
It actually happened! The Nippon Kaigun (Imperial Japanese Navy) built a class of three subs that carried a trio of seaplanes a piece. They were originally planned to be used on raids to damage the Panama Canal; if this had actually been done, the Allies would have been at a severe disadvantage in shifting forces between the Atlantic and Pacific. The US war effort would have been especially hampered, as all ships built on the East or Gulf Coasts would have needed several more weeks to have reached the Pacific.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400_class_submarine - Wiki article about the I-400's.
http://gallery.depili.fi/d/752-1/IMG_6684.JPG - good photo of a detailed model

The H.M.S. Barracuda (the sub from the PC game) was one of the things I liked about the PC game- no matter how wacky it got, it never tried to do something that wasn't done in real life at roughly the same time.
Southrons, hear your country call you!
Up lest worse than death befall you!
To arms, to arms, to arms in Dixie.


All my planes are made with parts from: http://www.toposolitario.com/workshop/crimsonskies.html.

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Re: Confederation of Dixie Navy

Postby foxmalcolm » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:00 pm

Ok Carthaginian, I think I have a veiled threat for why the CoD would be using improvised carriers out at sea.
After reading about your great little idea I felt inspired enough to trawl through several online databases of ships and blueprints from WWII.
Eventually I found what I was looking for, a vessel that would require very little surface modification in order for it to function as a pirate carrier and still pass muster of a merchant vessel if boarded.
This is the IJN "Itsukushimamaru" an aux-tanker from WWII.
Note the inspection gangway above the tanks that looks like an elevated runway
Image
I am currently making a simple model of this ship and trying to explore how they could modify this ship to appear as a tanker and through the use of [very sturdy] false walls and concealled elevators, pass an inspection by boarders.
The main hanger for this vessel would be situated within the oil tanks, a great cover really, as it is impossible to inspect the inside when they are full and she will always be "full".
I will be extending the central raised area into a control tower/bridge with a passageway through it for the runway.
Mounted on top will be two catching cranes


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