Would the Disunited States unite?

Got history/background for a region in CS? let us know. (Also includes re-interpretations of Canon if you wish)
feggula
PostsCOLON 32
JoinedCOLON Mon May 28, 2012 1:22 pm
Are you a Human?COLON Yes

Would the Disunited States unite?

Postby feggula » Mon May 28, 2012 1:49 pm

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster!
Here's are a couple of quick questions for you regarding alternate realties.

Firstly, ignore *all* the history of Crimson Skies except that of the America's themselves, and assume that history is as our reality, thus the UK, Australia, Europe, Russia is all historically accurate.

Would the various states of America ever reunite at any time in history? Would they ever form a United States of America under one rule again? Could they ever be united militarily by one state, and if so which state?

If WW2 never happened, when would the Crimson Skies era end, knowing that war fuels technology?


Just asking because we have our own timeline for our "Red Skies" campaign, but one mimicking that found in the original Command & Conquer: Red Alert computer game. Hitler does not rise to power as he disappears in 1924 and the Nazi party is only one of the many radical parties operating in Germany at the time. With the 'permission' of the current President, the Chancellor and Minister of Defence - Kurt von Schleicher - organises a military take over and declares martial law. Over the next six months, there are many clashes in the streets as the military tackles the fringe parties, but eventually law and order are restored and martial law is dropped. Nationalism and unity are promoted and knowing that Germany is in a weak state, a major upgrading of the armed forces is started, over the protest of Britain and France (although they do nothing about it). Germany becomes a prime player politically in Europe in the late 30's and 40's but would always be at odds with the Soviet Union, which would eventually lead to the Great World War 2 in 1953.

That's our main historical change, but we have many other minor ones. The main thing is that we have a timeline stretching from before now to 2303AD and wanted to know whether, if at all, a disunited States of America would ever become a unified state, such as as it ever was, or as the United Kingdom is or like Europe is.


Thoughts, flames or parachutes?

User avatar
foxmalcolm
PostsCOLON 640
JoinedCOLON Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:51 pm
Are you a Human?COLON Yes
LocationCOLON Melbourne, Australia
CONTACTCOLON

Re: Would the Disunited States unite?

Postby foxmalcolm » Mon May 28, 2012 4:47 pm

Ooh a provocative thought, yay !
First of all mate, Hi and welcome to the forum!
Secondly, Good topic!

Before Crimson Skies my year 9 History teacher [1994] use to pose hypothetical alterations to history and have us split into groups and discuss how a.) this would effect future events and b.) would the event still occur [ just with different names and places attached to it ]

For instance what would have happened if Hitler never lived?
Second world war still would have happened, it was agreed that while he played a pivotal part he wasn't the catalyst, he was just an instigator.
Someone else would have risen up and just taken his place, ergo the war would still have happened [different names, different places].

So the main answer to your question would be that it still would have happened, just at a later time with different names and places.
At that point in History Europe was still a smoldering cauldron of unexpressed frustrations and age old hatreds, The Great War was a much needed pressure valve.

Germany didn't start that war but was more than eager to add its voice to the cause.
Unfortunately that war ended prematurely, issues and tensions were not resolved and ontop of that the last war added its own "new" tension to the pot, that of "War Reparations".

Hitler got into power by promising to rebuild Germany/end unemployment/poverty/etc.
This was at a time when the Germany economy was totally shot and some of the victorious nations decided to give aid to the literally starving nation.
Also this was just a few years before the worst winter blizzards on record throughout Europe, even if Hitler hadn't been there, that much pressure [both political and environmental] would have created its own events.

The thing I have always like about the alternate history laid out in Crimson Skies, is it provides a floodgate to the tensions by providing another outlet for Europe's attentions.
The problem then is that this new reservoir is already significantly full itself with its own internal pressures, eventually both it and its neighbour will fill again [ie war inevitable].

As to your second question "whether, if at all, a disunited States of America would ever become a unified state", to be perfectly honest I was always astonished that it ever unified to begin with.

I suppose all it took was a common threat and historically speaking those are quite rare.
I suppose it might be possible for some of the CS countries to re-constitutionalise into a new "unified" nation but based on the breakup I can clearly see that some states would resist this and possibly feel that such a nation would threaten its sovereignty hence they might actively oppose it.

As a possible scenario [and taking this literally form recent events] lets say Nathan Dunbar and his anti piracy act [that CS:HtR] introduced, leads to The Nation of Hollywood declaring any country that harbours pirates is helping to destablise the region by promoting piracy and is therefore to be treated as a pirate nation . . . a good excuse as any.

The first nation or two that they "Bring Justice" to goes unopposed, then a number of states start to protest this violation of their neighbours sovereign rights to govern themselves.
They form mutual protection coalitions, probably several groups containing an allied nation or two, then later on several of these groups might merge to provide a more unified front.

Whilst this is happening a few of the more powerful nations like Texas, will not be threatened by these events and will probably close its borders to safeguard it's own interests.
For the most part those more powerful nations will not intervene, and when the dust settles will probably choose to remain independent,

I imagine that those that joined in the coalition might see the wisdom of a single government controlling them and forge a new nation, but even then it won't be the United States.

User avatar
Thom
PostsCOLON 1007
JoinedCOLON Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: Would the Disunited States unite?

Postby Thom » Mon May 28, 2012 5:00 pm

If I were to project into North America's post WWII future in Crimson Skies, I could envision several alliances and mergers, but the cat is out of the bag now and I don't think the old US could ever be completely re-united. The minimum that I could see would be five nations where one once stood.


I see WWII starting and being largely (But not exclusively) fought in North America and by the end of the war we could see five big exhausted dogs cleaning up the mess. Smaller sovereign nations might still exist, but only as "Protectorates" of their bigger neighbors.

1. Confederation of Dixie or Confederate States of America, claiming Louisiana (But loosing Arkansas) and much of Appalachia (Tennessee and Kentucky), Virginia and the Carolina's.

2. The Republic of Texas, claiming most lands west of the Mississippi and east of the Continental Divide, New Mexico, Colorado and Utah and up the Rockies, Arkansas, Kansas, Nebraska and the Dakotas, skirting the ISA.

3. The Republic of California (Formerly Hollywood) claiming most of Pacifica, the former Arizona and all the way east into the heart of Utah and Colorado up the western side of the Continental Divide.

4. Industrial States of America would have likely stood neutral during the war, instead selling war machines to all buyers, pretty much holding their borders as is. The Protectorate of Ontario will end up in a very close alliance with the ISA so as to be nearly the same nation.

5. The New United States of America, the last one I see would be a forced conquest and merging of the remaining mid western & eastern states, Probably led by and from New York or Philadelphia and taking all of the remaining eastern seaboard and the Appalachian state (West Virginia) not taken by Dixie. Also claiming the Maritime Provinces and disputing control of the St Lawrence. Washington DC is now just a trophy city.


Smashed and defeated (But perhaps not conquered in spirit) I see Utah, Lakota, Arixo and The Peoples Collective all gone and the Disputed Western Territories no longer so disputed. None of the eastern nations remain unchanged, all of them now being part of the new NUSA. Parts of Mexico and Canada would be consumed by these super nations and the rebellious spirit of the North American peoples would probably never be put down, no nation would ever rule trouble free without fear of rebellion or internal conflict.
Flying the Crimson Skies

User avatar
Captain Zee
PostsCOLON 77
JoinedCOLON Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:19 am
Are you a Human?COLON Yes
LocationCOLON Fishtail, Montana

Re: Would the Disunited States unite?

Postby Captain Zee » Mon May 28, 2012 11:39 pm

Welcome to the Forums feggula!

I pretty much agree with Thom and Fox, but CS placed a lot of the reason it separated on the then popular movements (either political or religious), such as Utah's decision to make Mormonism the national religion. And lets not forget the original Isolationists, who strongly disapproved of the U.N. and any national aid during the Great Depression.

The only thing I question about Thom's and Fox's ideas are the national boarders. I think they would be closer to the "quarantine zones" the old US set up after their fighting men and women returning from the Great War brought back some sort of disease that resembled Europe's "Dark Plague." I don't know where those "zones" are, but the game states that the new boarders of the fractured states were places along the same as the "zones" were.

Otherwise, I agree that Dixie, Texas, California, and the ISA would hold all the chips in this gamble.
Montana Zeppelin & Radio Company

User avatar
foxmalcolm
PostsCOLON 640
JoinedCOLON Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:51 pm
Are you a Human?COLON Yes
LocationCOLON Melbourne, Australia
CONTACTCOLON

Re: Would the Disunited States unite?

Postby foxmalcolm » Tue May 29, 2012 1:02 am

Captain Zee wroteColonI think they would be closer to the "quarantine zones" the old US set up after their fighting men and women returning from the Great War brought back some sort of disease that resembled Europe's "Dark Plague."

Remind me what disease was this?
All I remember was the influenza pandemic that hit the states after the war, the only thing I remember about a "plague" from this time was a isolated report of a plague ship in Italy that was quarantined with Bubonic Plague, but nothing widespread . . .

csadn
PostsCOLON 61
JoinedCOLON Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:26 pm
Are you a Human?COLON Yes
LocationCOLON Sitting down, facing front.

Re: Would the Disunited States unite?

Postby csadn » Tue May 29, 2012 6:08 am

feggula wroteColonWould the various states of America ever reunite at any time in history?


It would depend on how they reunited -- for ex.: Most of the nations of NA are under some sort of Foreign Influence (ISA -- Germany; Dixie and Ontario -- Britain; Louisiana and Quebec -- France; Hawaii -- Japan; Alaska -- Russia), but at least three of the major players have no foreign influence, nor are they actively fighting each other (Empire State; Texas; Pacifica). If ES, TX, and PF were to ally, and find some way of coordinating to defeat the nations around them, they could then "unify the US" -- but in a form which would be unrecognizable to folk who remember what the USA looked like before the Collapse (I'm envisioning three "columns" across the map of the former US; the west column is PF-controlled; the center TX-controlled; the east ES-controlled). And that's just one of many possibilities; to try to list them all would require a Stephen-King-sized novel. :)

feggula wroteColonWould they ever form a United States of America under one rule again?


See previous -- same problem: Too many possible permutations.

feggula wroteColonCould they ever be united militarily by one state, and if so which state?


Probably not, at least not in open conflict; the act of taking down even one of the larger states would overstretch even the largest NA player, with or without outside aid. (I had a novelette idea which explored this idea -- if there's interest, I could be prevailed upon to write it. :) )

feggula wroteColonIf WW2 never happened, when would the Crimson Skies era end, knowing that war fuels technology?


This would also depend on events. A unified NA under a strong central gov't with a competent and capable military would make its first act "bringing the pirates to heel" (think "US Indian Wars" or "US vs. the Barbary Corsairs, post-1815"). A non-united NA might still be able to end the air-pirate age, but it would be a series of unrelated campaigns rather than one great crushing action.

The tech-advancement question was one I had many occasions to discuss with Mr. Trautmann (he who was in charge of the game when MS controlled it). One of the fundamentals was: In-game, tech would be kept strictly limited -- there would not be any radar, or computers, or nukes (dear god, no nukes...). So, I suppose the answer is "So long as the CS Era exists, tech will remain stagnant".

feggula wroteColon Hitler does not rise to power as he disappears in 1924 and the Nazi party is only one of the many radical parties operating in Germany at the time. With the 'permission' of the current President, the Chancellor and Minister of Defence - Kurt von Schleicher - organises a military take over and declares martial law. Over the next six months, there are many clashes in the streets as the military tackles the fringe parties, but eventually law and order are restored and martial law is dropped. Nationalism and unity are promoted and knowing that Germany is in a weak state, a major upgrading of the armed forces is started, over the protest of Britain and France (although they do nothing about it). Germany becomes a prime player politically in Europe in the late 30's and 40's but would always be at odds with the Soviet Union, which would eventually lead to the Great World War 2 in 1953.


Here you run across one of the major problems _CS_ suffered from: Dear Old Uncle Adi. "As you know, Bob" [ :) ], in Europe, and Germany especially, depictions of Hitler, Nazis, swastikas, etc., are Strictly Verboten; yet most of the pulps of the period featured heroes who were full-time Fearless Nazi Smashers. So, the problem is: How to depict pulp-era villains, esp. Adolf, when doing so renders it impossible to sell the product in a large part of the world? (Not to mention the "it's for the children" types who go batflop-insane at the suggestion that kids might be exposed to Real-World Horror.)

Unfortunately, as I learned from my convos with Herr Trautmann, MS's solution was "the elephant in the living room": Ignore it, and hope like hell no one else comments on it. There was never to be any mention of the political situation in Germany (or Japan, or the Soviet Bunion); and any attempts by anyone to write about same were to be quietly suppressed. Unfortunately, this sort of game inevitably attracts historians -- like me :) -- and so the very issues which are most-desperately being swept under the rug are being dragged out the other side.

The timeline you propose is similar to the various suggestions made on the old CS Forum for "a final solution of the Hitler Question" -- in short: Hitler dies early in his political career, so the Nazis never become the major player they were historically, and *definitely* never get into position to commit their historical atrocities. It's workable, but it whacks head-on into another big problem writers for the game faced: "No WW2 -- at least not in-game"; WW2 was seen as "the end of the era" for pulp-fiction, so having it in CS would end the CS Era (see earlier remarks), which is sort of counterproductive. :)

(For reference: My solution for the Hitler Question was "his bodyguards weren't quite quick enough at Munich, and he dies in the gunfire; the party then collapses, and its members divide among various nationalist and regionalist parties". This leads to the Big Threat of the period being not Berlin; but Moscow, and the Communist International, who seek by means both overt and covert to overthrow the weakened and divided nations of Eurasia, and even unto the Americas.)

feggula wroteColonThoughts, flames or parachutes?


No flames -- it all seems reasonable, and well-thought-out; the only possible problems are those explained above.

feggula
PostsCOLON 32
JoinedCOLON Mon May 28, 2012 1:22 pm
Are you a Human?COLON Yes

Re: Would the Disunited States unite?

Postby feggula » Tue May 29, 2012 10:52 am

Hi all,

Thanks for the welcome, comments and feedback, very thought provoking and very welcome.
Because our campaign takes place long before what we had as a unification of America, I had initially pencilled in that the ISA would lead the campaign to unite America under the banner of NATO - The North American Treaty Organisation (as WW2 wouldn't start under 1953 I felt I could quite happily use this acronym!). We had envisaged NATO then a sort of ruling body for the entirety of North America but where each individual country was still independant. A bit like Europe of today but maybe not so unioned. They would then start to take the fight to the air pirates. That was done without any real thought to the consequences or whether they could even fulfil such an act, so take it with a pinch of salt.

So getting back to the topic, it seems then that once America splits, it probably will never reunite, but it might form alliances and treaties and maybe merges (or "absorbtions"). Do you think that the various states might band together to form something like the NATO listed above for mutual defence against an outside aggressor or to promote trade and travel with America? Trouble with that though, is that because most of the various states have strong links with other countries there would not be any single aggressor that would cause such a move - one persons ally is anothers enemy.

But yes, as casdn wrote, you think Pulp, you predominantely think Nazis as the enemy (and yes, they do make good villians), but in our game we wanted to get away from that stereotype and instead have a new villian; so we use the Soviets instead, and hence the title of our campaign "Red Skies". Stalin was just as much the monster as Hitler was, the Nazi's just went about their atrocities much more openly, and besides, the Soviets were against Germany and had treaties with the Allies so nobody complained too much. But Stalin and a unified Russia make good villians and if you believe the rumours, Stalin was every bit the occultist that Hitler was claimed to be, there even being a proper department devoted to the studies of occult powers to aid the country. But I digress rather heavily.

Oh, but yes, I would like to read your novella if you get the chance to write it!

User avatar
Captain Zee
PostsCOLON 77
JoinedCOLON Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:19 am
Are you a Human?COLON Yes
LocationCOLON Fishtail, Montana

Re: Would the Disunited States unite?

Postby Captain Zee » Wed May 30, 2012 12:31 am

foxmalcolm wroteColonRemind me what disease was this?
All I remember was the influenza pandemic that hit the states after the war, the only thing I remember about a "plague" from this time was a isolated report of a plague ship in Italy that was quarantined with Bubonic Plague, but nothing widespread . . .


I may have read something wrong, after re-reading the old story I mistook the pandemic for a plague (I remember hearing about that ship in Italy story off the History channel, that's probably where I got "plague" from). Sorry :oops:

But I think I got the "quarantine" part right.

feggula wroteColonDo you think that the various states might band together to form something like the NATO listed above for mutual defence against an outside aggressor or to promote trade and travel with America?


If piracy becomes such a major problem that the nations would be willing to set aside their differences to fight them, I think this would happen. Of course, it would have to be really bad. Well beyond the anarchy that dominates Mexico (in the game). Otherwise, they would need a common enemy much more threatening than pirates (ex. Soviets).

As for trade, that would mean that resources and raw materials would have to be thinned out in more than one nation; these nations would need to rely on each other to get the supplies their countries need (ex. oil and ores). However, this would take a much longer amount of time than a common enemy.
Montana Zeppelin & Radio Company

csadn
PostsCOLON 61
JoinedCOLON Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:26 pm
Are you a Human?COLON Yes
LocationCOLON Sitting down, facing front.

Re: Would the Disunited States unite?

Postby csadn » Wed May 30, 2012 8:14 am

feggula wroteColonSo getting back to the topic, it seems then that once America splits, it probably will never reunite, but it might form alliances and treaties and maybe merges (or "absorbtions"). Do you think that the various states might band together to form something like the NATO listed above for mutual defence against an outside aggressor or to promote trade and travel with America? Trouble with that though, is that because most of the various states have strong links with other countries there would not be any single aggressor that would cause such a move - one persons ally is anothers enemy.


That's what I was implying with the ES-PF-TX alliance above; it's the only combination of nations strong enough to dominate the continent, while not being beholden to "Foreign powers" ("foreign" here meaning "based outside NA").

In my notes on the subject (Yeah, I know -- I did a *lot* of thinking back then :) ), the way this putative "North American Alliance" worked was: Each regional power controlled its own internal affairs (tho' the smaller nations like AX and MP would be subtly dominated by the nearest larger nation); the Alliance organization existed solely to cover two conditions: First, to act as a "neutral arbiter" for disputes between regions, and second, to act as the "sole voice" for speaking to non-NA powers. The regionalism is retained, while still providing a unified front against The Other.
CF

User avatar
Cyagen
PostsCOLON 341
JoinedCOLON Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:53 pm
LocationCOLON République of Québec

Re: Would the Disunited States unite?

Postby Cyagen » Wed May 30, 2012 6:25 pm

csadn wroteColonHere you run across one of the major problems _CS_ suffered from: Dear Old Uncle Adi. "As you know, Bob" [ :) ], in Europe, and Germany especially, depictions of Hitler, Nazis, swastikas, etc., are Strictly Verboten; yet most of the pulps of the period featured heroes who were full-time Fearless Nazi Smashers. So, the problem is: How to depict pulp-era villains, esp. Adolf, when doing so renders it impossible to sell the product in a large part of the world? (Not to mention the "it's for the children" types who go batflop-insane at the suggestion that kids might be exposed to Real-World Horror.)

Unfortunately, as I learned from my convos with Herr Trautmann, MS's solution was "the elephant in the living room": Ignore it, and hope like hell no one else comments on it. There was never to be any mention of the political situation in Germany (or Japan, or the Soviet Bunion); and any attempts by anyone to write about same were to be quietly suppressed. Unfortunately, this sort of game inevitably attracts historians -- like me :) -- and so the very issues which are most-desperately being swept under the rug are being dragged out the other side.

The timeline you propose is similar to the various suggestions made on the old CS Forum for "a final solution of the Hitler Question" -- in short: Hitler dies early in his political career, so the Nazis never become the major player they were historically, and *definitely* never get into position to commit their historical atrocities. It's workable, but it whacks head-on into another big problem writers for the game faced: "No WW2 -- at least not in-game"; WW2 was seen as "the end of the era" for pulp-fiction, so having it in CS would end the CS Era (see earlier remarks), which is sort of counterproductive. :)

(For reference: My solution for the Hitler Question was "his bodyguards weren't quite quick enough at Munich, and he dies in the gunfire; the party then collapses, and its members divide among various nationalist and regionalist parties". This leads to the Big Threat of the period being not Berlin; but Moscow, and the Communist International, who seek by means both overt and covert to overthrow the weakened and divided nations of Eurasia, and even unto the Americas.)


Living in Germany since 2004 I came up with a more soft solution. Hitler did not manage to get the support of the Prussian officer class and the industrialists that rally around the Kaiser. Without that no Hindenburg as President, so the NSDAP remain strong but can't move the Army. It still leaves you with the Danzig problem but I made Willy a pacifist that does not want another war....

Making the Communists the villains is also attractive since they killed more people than the NSDAP and have a nice monster of their own.
Malphas, over and out


Return to

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 1 and 0 guests